In Conversation: Belonging & Empowerment - The Future of Women in the Workplace

International Women’s Day 2024  

Belonging & Empowerment: The Future of Women in the Workplace 

In Conversation With 

• Michaela Doelman, Chief Human Resources Officer from the State of Washington,  

• Silvia Fraser, Director, Transformation, Workplace Strategies, ModernTO, City of Toronto,  

• and Dr. Jessica Jones, Director of Employee Engagement and Training from the State of Louisiana 

Madeson Darcy 

Hello and welcome to a special edition of the public sector network podcast. My name is Maddy and I'm thrilled to be here in recognition of International Women's Day 2024 where we'll be celebrating and championing women in leadership and the initiatives inspiring inclusion.  

Joining me today are three remarkable executives each making significant strides in their fields. I have:  

Michaela Doelman, Chief Human Resources Officer from the State of Washington,  

Silvia Fraser, Director, Transformation, Workplace Strategies, ModernTO, City of Toronto,  

and Dr. Jessica Jones, Director of Employee Engagement and Training from the State of Louisiana 

International Women's Day is not only country or organization specific. It's a global day of reflection and celebration that belongs to all those invested in women's equality.  

The last few years the narrative around International Women's Day has changed, with some people arguing that it's used as corporate Washington making it lose all meaning. That's why today we wanted to focus on the tangible; the people behind the strategies and transformation who drive action change for women in the workforce.  

The theme for International Women's Day this year is invest in women accelerate progress, and it resonates with us deeply. Today, we're here to explore how we can inspire inclusion through workplace cultures to support not only the women in our workplaces, but the woman as a whole to foster belonging, relevance and empowerment.  

So how about we dive into this important topic together and get started 

I'll begin with Dr. Jessica Jones on the topic of smashing glass ceilings. From your experience, what are some of the biggest obstacles women encounter when striving to progress in the workplace, particularly in male-dominated industries or executive roles, and what strategies have you found effective in overcoming them? 

Dr. Jessica Jones 

Thank you so much, Maddy, and thank you to the Public Sector Network. It's indeed an honor to represent in this role, as well as being an Advisory Board Member for Public Sector Network.  

When I think about smashing the glass ceilings, which sometimes feels more like concrete than actually glass, I resonate with Kimberly Crenshaw's idea of intersectionality. Because when I speak, I'm speaking as a woman. But I'm also speaking, as a black woman, who is also a single parent divorcee, and so many different things.  

Navigating the ceilings, one of the things, at least for me, that has been challenging - actually, I'm a proponent for allyship, but what I've been finding is that unfortunately, there has been a lot of pseudo-allyship present in the workplace. As women navigating these gender politics, we've encountered these glass ceilings, these concrete barriers where individuals are starting to be performative and they're appearing to be advocates and supportive as long as it's convenient, right, as long as there's a need.  

Then it goes into some of the labeling that exists for women, whereas a man, a person who identifies as a man could very much be very passionate when he is expressing something, and then for women, it translates into being overly emotional or angry. Those types of stereotypes still exist, and they're very pervasive.  

But when I think about how do we shatter these glass ceilings, how do we break through the concrete? I would tell individuals that it's very critical that as women and even as individuals who are advocates who claim to be supporters of women, it's really being very self-aware and really starting to invest in self. You know, when I was growing up, I was sort of told you just need to work very hard and everything will align as long as you work hard. I'm now 41 years old, and I've had a great deal of experience at this age, and for me, meritocracy is somewhat a figment of individuals, especially women's, imaginations, right? We're working hard, but at the same time, there are still these barriers.  

So, being very self-aware, I think is very critical, being very strategic and ultimately realizing that relationships are indeed the ultimate currency, but also being strategic in how we form those relationships, right? And so, identifying those key stakeholders, right, because those key stakeholders are the ones responsible for power, for influence and how they're navigating in these systems. So, I would say that's one major way of how we're sort of pushing against the dominance. It's to really move into being very self-aware, but also forming these key relationships so that we can also move alongside with those individuals who already have the access and who have the power and things of that nature. And so, I'll sort of stop there. 

Madeson Darcy 

That's an excellent point. Silvia, do you have any strategies that you use to smash glass ceilings over at the City of Toronto? 

Silvia Fraser  

It's a very good question, and thank you, Doctor Jones, for your thoughtful and very deep response. You're so inspiring. It made me really think about my background and where some of the same biases grew as I was growing up and also entering and starting in a male-dominated professional environment. I worked in security for a long time, and at that time, I was one of the few or the only woman at the table. This remained the case as I moved into leadership positions. So, when I look at breaking the ceilings and moving ourselves and others, it's really about the idea of "a candle loses nothing by lighting another." I think it's what we need to pay attention to because our cultures, or the way we've been brought up, or the way we enter the workforce with ambitions to move into leadership roles. 

It's about everybody else around us and helping others to feel empowered and become the leaders they are, whether they're women or not. Those are the principles I live by - to help others. So, we have a Women's network called TO Now. While this started as an internal staff network focused on empowering women, we opened it up to everybody, and now we have over 2000 members across not just the city but other levels of government and the private sector as well.  

We have so much to share, and it comes down to the principle of helping each other and helping everybody else. It comes from a place of being humble, of holding your hand no matter where I'm going, and helping each other achieve as a community. It's about the sense of community. So, the network has grown. We learned to leverage resources among different organizations and challenge ourselves in the way we approach conversation topics and bridge into other areas. For example, how do we learn about financial health? How do we learn about wellness? We're opening up to a much broader sense.  

Of course, this is just one of many. The city has a strong inclusion strategy, and through our workplace transformation, which is what I lead, we're looking at how to build the future of work. The city, like other organizations, has outdated office environments, but it's beyond just the look and feel. It's about the sense of the workplace, looking at flexibility and choice, being agile.  

In developing our standards for the future of work, we ensure we collaborate and engage with all groups and communities across the city to ensure that the vision of the future is very inclusive because the workplace is not just about coming to the office; it's being at home, collaborating online, and engaging with communities. As a public servant, we represent the communities, so we have to be inclusive by design. That's the approach we're taking in everything we do, to have a lot of inclusion overall as a woman leader building our future.  

My focus is on building future leaders because I feel unbiased, so I catch myself having that self-awareness and not assuming that just because I've grown up in a certain way, everybody has the same experiences. So, I learn every day. Having that awareness and being open to exploring different things and ideas while focusing on succession planning and our future leaders—how do we ensure that five years, 10 years, 20 years from now, the future looks like in the city where we know we're going to lose over 60% of our workforce over the next 20 years? It's not just about post-COVID or the transition to hybrid work; it's about the reality here and how we build. 

 We have an opportunity. That's the way I look at things. We have an opportunity to do, but as the leaders now, we have to be aware of the baggage we carry so that we don't make the same mistakes or hinder moving forward. 

Madeson Darcy 

Perfect. Thank you so much, Silvia. We do a lot of work with TO Now, so I love the shoutout. 

Michaela, could you share some strategies that you implement throughout the state of Washington that you find valuable for smashing glass ceilings? 

Michaela Doelman 

Yeah, I first want to amplify what Doctor Jessica Jones said earlier about embracing intersectionality and shifting the focus from glass to concrete. One of the things I feel very fortunate about in the state of Washington is that when it comes to gender equality, we're doing pretty well for the most part; we are represented at 50% or higher with women in the workplace. 

Once you smash through that layer, it gives you the opportunity to see where the other layers of inequity or disparities are. We're realizing that you can have gender equity, but that doesn't mean that all women or those who are nonbinary or transgender are succeeding.  

The strategy to me, as Jessica mentioned earlier, is the difference between performative and actual allyship or change. What is meaningful change? Business resource groups or opportunities for women to gather are super important. I've found a lot of value in having community, but as a biracial person, I didn't feel like I fit in those places, and many policies were not working for me. They were excluding a lot of people.  

To create meaningful change, the strategies to me are in positions of power where people with lived experience can make a difference. We talk a lot about the power of three in any executive room. When you're the only person in the room, your voice gets drowned out. When there are two, you can amplify each other, but you still get talked over and isolated as troublemakers. But once you can get three people into a room, the narrative shifts, and people have to start listening.  

So it's about creating positions in that executive room to get more people with different voices and decision-making power so that you can shift it. Our policies have changed substantially in the state of Washington since Governor Inslee took office because he shifted his cabinet to be majority women in heads of agency roles. Then, we implemented policies like paid family medical leave and infants in the workplace, which were informed by firsthand experiences. 

That really made a policy that would work for people so that they could actually get work done and bond with their child at the same time. It was being realistic, saying, you know what? You're not going to be at 100%, but you're back in the workplace, and that's better than you not being here at all or quitting because you don't feel like you can balance the two. So, the strategy for me is just getting plain and clear: you need people with lived experience who are impacted by this work in those positions, helping shift the policy. 

Madeson Darcy  

I love that. I completely agree. It kind of boggles my mind sometimes when you have males at the center of, you know, mat leave and things like that. It doesn't make any sense.  

I'm actually very surprised to hear that it's 50/50 at the state of Washington! 

Michaela Doelman 

Well, it dropped. It's at 49 now, and fortunately, we've been at actually 51, 52. And then during the pandemic, it dropped and dropped and dropped. 

And we're trying to recover back, but it's just another sign of, you know, talking with a ton of people during the pandemic when they were leaving. It's because they couldn't balance the two, and somebody had to stay home when their kids were home. 

Madeson Darcy  

So, Jessica, I'm going to give you the next question, and it's about empowering the next generation. Which initiatives or programs do you believe are most successful in encouraging young women to pursue careers in traditionally male-dominated fields, and how can organizations and communities support their professional growth and aspirations? 

Dr. Jessica Jones  

Right. So for this question, I do want to highlight a program that I strongly believe in. My background is in higher education, so I was an English professor and then moved into administration for student services. But I do want to advocate for the federal Trio program in the United States, really. Upper Bound, the Ronald McNair program, upper bound, math, science. They do a really great job of making sure that individuals who typically would not have access, not just to higher education, but to these STEM fields, that it's fully ingrained in their curriculum and with the exposure. So Trio has done a very great job, and I hope that it continues to be funded and funded even more for individuals who are living in poverty and really giving them that sense of access to being exposed to those particular fields.  

So I think that's something that I would really tout as, you know, what programs have been really successful and then thinking about the significance of these internships and making sure that our next generation or young people are being exposed to individuals in these fields early on. I think internships are definitely underrated. We definitely know that they're not pervasive in all communities, and so certain communities are sort of shut out from those. So that's something that I would really want to, personally, just kind of see expand, thinking about the next generation and empowering them in that regard and even thinking about, you know, developing mentorship and we know the difference between mentorship and sponsorships and really making sure that these young people have mentors. 

But you know, as Michaela mentioned, it's very significant to have like the three, that power cord in the room because you can amplify voices. But at the same time, I think about sponsorship, right, because those, the powerful three, I'm pretty sure they're thinking about who's not in the room, right? And so that's another way that I think we can really help the next generation because they can help advance thinking about the future and making sure that that pathway is being paved for those who are coming next.  

But I'm definitely always going to advocate for Trio. I wasn't able to participate in Trio, but I was an instructor for it and it's definitely a program where I've seen people do leaps and bounds regarding entry into the stem field because not only are they introduced, as I mentioned, just curriculum wise, but they're exposed to so much more that really helps them navigate right the politics and understand what it means to function you know, just in the workforce. 

Madeson Darcy  

Thank you for that. I'm moving along to fostering supportive work environments. Silvia I just had a question regarding what role do company culture and leadership practices play and promoting gender diversity and establishing inclusive workplaces where women can excel and progress their careers.  

Can you provide any examples of successful organizational strategies or initiatives?  

Silvia Fraser  

Well, thank you for the question. Yes, absolutely. I believe being in the City of Toronto has exposed me to a lot of strategies. Personally, I started with the City of Toronto in 2001 as a security guard, and at the time I was one of a handful of security guards at the city. I had no intention of staying in the city of Toronto. I thought I would pursue a law enforcement career.  

Some key strategies that helped me aren't just about entering a male environment or those positions where you may be developing. It's about what's keeping us there. When I talk about strategies that have helped me, it's things like mentorship, having sponsors, access to professional development, and the industry. So, it's not just the organization, but also the industries we participate in.  

For example, now I'm in corporate real estate, participating in global organizations to coordinate and inspire young leaders who are considering a career in corporate real estate management and young women who may doubt if it's the right path for them. We offer internships and summer terms, which the city does, not just to get them in but also to keep their passion alive. That's been my focus and what has helped me.  

Sponsorship and mentorship are also probably key. I still have mentors who have mentored me for many years. It's about relationships, the network. It's not just one way; it's also me being mentored and sponsoring and mentoring others. Within the city, we have layers of mentorship within our divisions and departments and corporate-wide, reaching out to youth and discussing what we do. I'm passionate about public service and local government, and I go to colleges to reach out to youth in the community, saying, "Hey, we're here. We have 45,000 employees." 

That means 45,000 jobs, and here are some examples of what you can do and how we can help you get there.  

Also, when we talk about inclusivity and having those, we have several community inclusions within the city. Over time, the city has fostered and formalized these community inclusions to support and foster their visibility and growth within and outside the city, with events, visibility, and participation. To me, it's the work inside the organization and how we get those leaders inside or the women leaders that want.  

There's a story I heard about the drive for inclusion, where sometimes it's seen as lip service. What do you do for me now that you've reached your numbers and promoted me? That's where we're focusing on, supporting leaders in those positions and their growth. Hiring practices are essential. We often reach out in traditional ways of hiring, posting, and so forth. With our equity partners, we bridge the gap to reach out to communities to ensure inclusivity. We've done specific postings to target particular groups as well. To me, it's a cycle, meeting people where they are, bringing them in, fostering relationships, supporting their growth, and how they support others. That's the only way we can be a community as a whole. 

Madeson Darcy  

Thank you, Sylvia.  

Michaela, is there anything that the State of Washington does? 

Michaela Doelman  

It's kind of a mixture, and I was thinking more around like kind of accountability and what can we do that's tangible that we can show. So, I think, you know, like what are the actions or the outcomes that you're taking? And so, you know, what are we doing with regards to childcare support to be able to help people have that flexibility? Because the reality is that no matter what we do in the workplace, there is still going to be a societal expectation that women are the default parent in families. 

And so how do we account for that and how do we provide that extra flexibility and support, you know, what kind of health benefits are you offering, you know, whether it's reproductive support, whether it's maternal care, what are you doing with regards to the benefits that you're bringing into your organization? Gender-specific mentoring as well because it is that thing of I've had the I've I wouldn't be in my career that I where I am right now had I not had men who were advocating and mentoring me and some of the information I was given I was like, there is no way that I am going to succeed with that. 

So, to be able to see people who look like you and who can get you and help you umm is so important as well. But I think it's also kind of those intangible things or more of that qualitative work with what does it truly mean to belong in the workplace? We talk like there's a lot and I've had this conversation with people where I'm like you're including me. But how you have designed your workplace? I do not feel like I belong, so I go back to, like, just what are those unwritten customs that you have in your workplace? 

You know, are you having happy hour outside of work where I would need to get childcare or I would be the only woman in a bar and I would be worried about what people would be saying about me if I was hanging out with all of these men, you know, or are you doing golfing as your way of team bonding and just kind of all of those norms that are designed by people but not for everyone. 

And I think what it comes down to the strategy being if you want to create or transition from inclusion to true belonging that requires a co-creation and a lot of conversation. Many times, we have people come up with great ideas in a silo and then deploy it out and say this is our inclusion strategy or this is what we're doing. But if you truly want to move towards a workplace where women can feel like they belong or feel like they can, they want to stay beyond just being hired, then it requires kind of a shift in how you do your work. 

And it takes more time to bring people in and to have those conversations and the necessary conflict that is required to be able say this doesn't work for me. We’ve got to try again, but that's the only way you're going to have a workplace where everyone feels like they can belong. And I would just say, you know, like going back to or reapplying what Jessica shared in the beginning of, you know, we don't want to just shift the pendulum to say, OK, at one point it was just for men. Now it's a place for, you know, white women. 

This is about instead of the pendulum shifting, truly opening it up and redesigning to say this is about universal access, this isn't about just for women. This is about people with disabilities, people from the LGBTQ community, people of color. We want a workplace that is designed for everyone to feel like they can belong and succeed and have equal opportunity to promote and stay within the workforce. 

Madeson Darcy 

That's amazing. Thank you so much for that.  

I'm going to pass along the last question to all three of you, but we'll start with Jessica and we're going on the topic of measuring progress and accountability. 

How can businesses and leaders effectively gauge progress towards gender equality objectives and what mechanisms can be implemented to remain accountable? 

Dr. Jessica Jones  

So, I'd like to build on what Michaela just mentioned, which is crucial, especially when considering leadership and the potential for progress and accountability. The concept of belonging is paramount, right? When we express the intent to allow individuals to co-create, we need our senior leadership to genuinely value the individuals' ability to contribute to the room. However, the full realization of reciprocity often falls short or doesn't entirely translate. 

Reaching a point where every person can be their authentic selves is pivotal for progress. The question becomes, can I genuinely show up as myself and still be valued to that extent? In Louisiana, during my tenure as the Director for Diversity, Equity, Inclusion, and Belonging, we undertook a poverty initiative. But, as evident, what's crucial is measurable outcomes. We understand that if it isn't measured, it isn't counted, and we need to be mindful of that. 

Collecting data is one thing, but if it ends up on a shelf collecting dust, it defeats the purpose. Therefore, we must ensure that our data collection aligns with our mission and values. In our case, we established SMART goals, and being one of the first in Louisiana, we began by gathering baseline data to understand our starting point. We benchmarked against other states, with Washington serving as a model. 

I want to emphasize the importance of not just getting senior leadership to "buy in." Instead, I prefer to challenge them to truly value the initiative. If you value it, you'll invest in it because what you value, you protect. And what you protect, tends to sustain. Accountability is my focal point because, while measuring progress is manageable, ensuring accountability from senior leadership is challenging. They need to ask themselves why they are committed to this initiative – is it to check boxes, create a facade, or do they genuinely value the people present and those coming in? Silvia also highlighted this concern – how do we retain individuals? That accountability factor is pivotal because without it, sustainability becomes precarious. I'll pause here and hand it over to my partnership. 

Madeson Darcy  

Thank you, Jessica. Silvia, would you like to go next on accountability within your organization? 

Silvia Fraser  

Yeah absolutely. Accountability is leadership. To me, persistency, and consistency in making that a priority at all levels. Whether you're showing it up and you know the mission and vision and carrying it through all the way to performance planning and all actions, that's a priority. 

So, I think we need to take what is the agenda for inclusivity in everything that we do? How do we do procurement? For example, how do we build our workspaces? How do we build? To me, it's a mindset, and it needs to be carried through in everything that we do and having those measurements. 

So within us designing and creating the new work, the future of work, and we do take the pulse as to what was before and what is after, and we're learning through that and really understanding that post-move and understanding the sentiments of staff to say, "Yeah, you make my life better" and the way I feel. But it's, I feel like it's just scratching the surface. We have a lot more work to do in those items because we're at the beginning of the implementation, but it goes beyond that. 

When I look at the workplace, it's how do we bring the culture into our workplaces? So, the sense of belonging, for example, and how do you maintain that measure? To me, this is a very hard question, to tell you the truth, because then do you carry it in, for example, exit interviews? Do you know why staff leave, for example, that talent attraction and retention. 

So, to me, it's an approach that we have to take in everything that we do with great detail, not just, you know, to check a box, but great intention to say yes. You know what? I'm going to be inclusive when we do this. How do we bring culture into the building? What is the art going to look like? What is the framework that we're going to use for that? Just to give an example right, just one aspect from a physical sense in our workplaces, but carrying in that through and measuring it. 

We have data, but again, you know, it's 'garbage in garbage out'. It's what do you measure and how do you actually qualitatively do that? So, I'll give you an example. We did a survey with one group that we relocated, and the results weren't great, although we didn't know that the sentiments should be, we thought it would be better. But there I was, a little bit surprised of the survey results and even the way we did it, I started to question to say no, is this survey really the best? 

Like, have we had the conversation? Have we had a really focused conversation about what that means? And so I started to question, you know, some of our previous strategies and ideas as to how we're going to even capture feedback before we even just talk about measuring is like, okay, have we actually asked the right questions and then have we asked them in a way that we're actually going to get what we need, which is, you know, how do staff actually use the workplaces and if we're doing so again for me it's a tough question, but it's really it's a sense of using that lens in every aspect that we do. 

What technology do we use? What are the collaboration tools, anything from people, process, and technology, everything has to have a lens of that. Even the way we do budgeting and priorities, so after everybody's put in their budget, asks, have we actually looked at it and say hold on a second, you know, how do we have that equity and inclusion once in it and at the city we have made that a priority, but measuring it, I think it's going to be a challenge to keep track and say; “okay, you know what have we made progress absolutely.” 

I have no doubt in my mind that we have moved the bar, it just takes a little bit more effort. 

Madeson Darcy 

For sure. And it's hard, too, because everybody's lens is different, isn't it? It's not a one trick pony.  

Michaela, would you like to conclude this question? 

Michaela Doelman 

Certainly. When considering accountability, I view it as positive pressure. We all may have good intentions, but often those intentions fall aside. I like to liken it to my reluctance to do sit-ups on my own. However, with a personal trainer guiding me and emphasizing the benefits of a strong core, that's the accountability I seek in the workplace. 

Accountability often gets a bad reputation, seen as a means to punish rather than a source of good pressure that keeps us focused on the right things. It's crucial to reshape the narrative around accountability, emphasizing its positive aspects. To this end, we've been striving to publish all our data on the Office of Financial Management's website in the state of Washington. This transparency allows us to hold ourselves accountable, acknowledging imperfections openly. 

Prior to the pandemic, we boasted over 50% female representation in the workforce. However, this number has decreased, and by sharing this data, we hope to invite accountability from the public and employees. It also serves as an invitation for fresh ideas, recognizing that those closest to the problem are best suited to solving it. 

Silvia, as you discussed measures and the integration of data with storytelling, I'm usually someone who tends to identify criticisms or problems to solve rather than celebrating successes. However, one success I'd like to highlight in Washington is our annual engagement survey across our 70,000 employees. 

We've disaggregated the data, allowing us to delve into specific identities and assess the level of engagement. For instance, we noticed a workplace with high engagement but a significant difference in response rates between white men and black women. This data prompts us to investigate further and engage in conversations to understand the underlying reasons. 

We conduct listening sessions at both the agency/team level and statewide level, following the data release. One notable success story involves our public performance review, where the governor attends monthly reviews based on different data. In two consecutive reviews at the end of 2023 focused on the workforce, employees from business resource groups shared their challenges with reasonable accommodations. 

The governor, actively listening to these stories, responded by incorporating changes into the budget based on employee feedback. This demonstrates our approach of showcasing data and then creating a space for open dialogue. It's essential to involve decision-makers in these conversations to avoid becoming numb to the data and to truly understand the impact on individuals. 

Madeson Darcy  

Well articulated, Michaela. Jessica or Silvia, do you have any additions to that? 

Silvia Fraser 

Thank you, Michaela - you've inspired me to share a process that we've implemented as part of our change management strategy within workplace strategies. It's about crafting a change story, and I must acknowledge my colleague Christina who led the initiative. What struck me the most was the emphasis on storytelling. We involved numerous staff members from all levels in shaping this change narrative. It wasn't about our story or me dictating what to do. Especially since we initiated the implementation so early on, tangible results weren't immediate due to the time it takes.  

Listening to these sessions, I was deeply moved by their experiences and the narratives they envisioned. Thus, we crafted a change story that we recently unveiled, inviting everyone to see themselves in it. It was a systematic design thinking process that garnered significant engagement. While we did analyze numbers and data and conducted surveys on workplace preferences regarding in-office days, we also used this information to shape hybrid policies and our future work structure. \\ 

However, the power lay in the stories themselves. Our leaders' narratives, like one giving up their office, added weight to our approach. It's not just about the day-to-day operations; it's about the narratives we build around them. I wanted to stress the importance of storytelling, especially considering the transformative changes occurring within the City of Toronto. Ensuring everyone has a voice and amplifying it is crucial for navigating these changes effectively. It's very, very important to carry us through and make sure that everyone has a voice and making sure that we can actually make that voice loud enough to be heard. 

Madeson Darcy 

Thank you, Silvia. Jessica, do you have anything you'd like to share before we sign off? 

Dr. Jessica Jones 

I'd like to express gratitude to my colleagues. I'm inspired by Silvia and Michaela to keep forging ahead with this work in Louisiana. Louisiana's structure is a little different from yours, but we'll keep doing the work, right? It's important work.  

Happy International Women's Day. Happy Women's History Month, and I just want to say, you know, here's to strong women! <ay we know them, may we be them, and may we raise them. 

Madeson Darcy 

 I love that. Thank you, ladies, so much for joining us today, and I really appreciate your time.